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Lancelot of Camelot
3303 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2012 : 1:54:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by UVSinger
I'm taking Lance's side in this one, folks. 
Also, I do not think Celine is a "fame wh*re" at all.
I know why people call her a diva but I always had a lot of respect for Celine. 
Yay UV is defending me.
I think so many of us in society like to take shots at famous people. I think a lot of times those shots taken are very unfair. These celebrities are treated as objects rather than people. We don't know them. I think Michael Jackson is a great example of this. In many ways besides his talent he was as far as I can tell a beautiful human being. However, I think it is obvious that he has had a number of incidences of inappropriate behavior with children. I love his music and I choose to remember the good he did. Many others choose to hate him for his problems. I don't claim to have the right answers. |
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monkeydharma
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 3:14:00 PM
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Originally posted by Roimeister
you guys must mistakenly believe that giving good advice is one of the duties of the judges... that's the duty of the mentor(s)
the judges duties are to promote products like their own line of sunglasses, talk about their wealth of experience, name-drop, perform once a season, and to create drama...
Good point! 
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monkeydharma
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 3:56:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancelot of Camelot
I agree that when you change any of the three it is not the same thing. To me that is the beauty of it. I get something new to enjoy.
And that's where we differ. Eight out of ten times, I don't enjoy it. Most songs are the product of their time and place - and infused by what the singer/songwriter intended to relay. Most covers are either rote, soulless note-for-note recreations, attempts at moving it to a different music style where it doesn't really fit, or just clueless, because the reproducer can't/won't get into the original zeitgeist.
A good example is that AI staple "I Will Always Love You". Dolly Parton (who wrote it) infused it with sincerity, wistfulness and a certain melancholy. Those in the know knew it was inspired by her professional breakup with music partner Porter Wagoner. A great song. The Houston version, on the other hand, is overblown, bombastic, with the wistfullness and melancholy wrung out of it. One suspects it is cocaine Whitney is singing about.
If AI contestants would try to do the Parton version (at least on occasion), I might be more tolerant - but they always cover Whitney, and when they fail it's crap; when they succeed - it's overblown, bombastic and wrung-out.
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I don't know your talent level Monkey, but I am guessing that when your bands do covers they are not necessarily better than the original, but I bet I would enjoy hearing your versions also.
You would - we were good.
We didn't strive for 'better' - because that wasn't our metric of success. A bar band gets paid (at least the backing musicians do) poorly, and rely on a healthy tip jar to augment the pay. Our goal was: - keep the sound as close to original as possible, so that those who want the original could say 'hey that was pretty close to the record'
- tweak it with just enough original bits so that the other people could say 'I like what they did with that' (and we wouldn't blow our brains out doing someone else's music), and
- get them up on the dance floor so that they were more likely to feed the tip jar
We lived for gigs where we could do our original stuff and not have to play covers.
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It is possible you are one of the very talented artists that actually improve on the original and in that case even better.
Like I said - that wasn't our goal. We just tried to make things more interesting for the dance floor - like a reggae break in the middle of 'The Joker' that would allow the gals to get all slinky and lap-dancey. The guys loved it and would feed the tip jar. Or a completely revamped bassline to 'Love the One You're With' that would get fannies out of their seats - and shekels into the jar.
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Are you familiar with Eva Cassidy? She is one of my favorite artists ever. I have never heard her do an original song. Her skill lies in her incredible voice and interpretation/styling.
I haven't heard of her - but it doesn't matter. I have no taste for 'interpreters'. I don't mind a singer/songwriter doing the occasional cover, if they think it fits into their repertoire - but I just do not like people whose career consists of interpreting other peoples emotions and thoughts. I rather listen to the originals, where no 'interpretation' is needed.
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However, it is easy for us to say that they should pay for more rights. It is not our money.
Not my point. The contestants get a limited selection based on AI's finances; they are often forced to do songs they'd rather not because they have no choice; then the judges complain because they are singing the same old songs.
I don't have to look kindly on it - and I don't.
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As for Crystal Bowersox I love her. As for comparing her to Janis I understand that can be annoying but people like to have a frame of reference. Who would have been a better comparison?
You're not talking about comparisons - you're talking about labeling. In discussing a singer, it is valid to note comparisons to other artists, but to continue to label someone as being like someone else is marketing shorthand and ultimately is stultifying to the singer's career. An example: I thouroughly like Leonard Cohen. Why would I want to hear someone else who's 'another Leonard Cohen'? I have Cohen already. I want to find someone else interesting who is not like someone I already enjoy.
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Edited by - monkeydharma on 08/07/2012 4:31:26 PM |
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monkeydharma
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 4:07:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancelot of Camelot
I think so many of us in society like to take shots at famous people. I think a lot of times those shots taken are very unfair. These celebrities are treated as objects rather than people.
They ARE objects.
A person is a person. A 'celebrity' is an artificial construct made by marketing, sales, and the idolizing public. When a person like Wacko Jacko buys into the fame machine - they deserve everything they get.
You can be an artist - and make a good living at it - without buying into the Fame machine. This is why most of my entertainment dollar goes to local and regional musicians: not only to listen to them live, but buying their CDs pretty much puts the money into THEIR pockets instead of a record company. I avoid famous acts in arenas like the clap. The only exceptions I make to this is when I can catch a name act in a small venue (which I luck out having several here in NorCal). Al Stewart in a 200-seat club? I'm there. Emmylou Harris or Amee Mann in a 1000-seat venue? Sure. Coldplay at Arco Arena? No way in hell.
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Edited by - monkeydharma on 08/07/2012 4:14:37 PM |
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Lancelot of Camelot
3303 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 6:55:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by monkeydharma
quote:
Originally posted by Lancelot of Camelot
I agree that when you change any of the three it is not the same thing. To me that is the beauty of it. I get something new to enjoy.
And that's where we differ. Eight out of ten times, I don't enjoy it. Most songs are the product of their time and place - and infused by what the singer/songwriter intended to relay. Most covers are either rote, soulless note-for-note recreations, attempts at moving it to a different music style where it doesn't really fit, or just clueless, because the reproducer can't/won't get into the original zeitgeist.
A good example is that AI staple "I Will Always Love You". Dolly Parton (who wrote it) infused it with sincerity, wistfulness and a certain melancholy. Those in the know knew it was inspired by her professional breakup with music partner Porter Wagoner. A great song. The Houston version, on the other hand, is overblown, bombastic, with the wistfullness and melancholy wrung out of it. One suspects it is cocaine Whitney is singing about.
If AI contestants would try to do the Parton version (at least on occasion), I might be more tolerant - but they always cover Whitney, and when they fail it's crap; when they succeed - it's overblown, bombastic and wrung-out.
quote:
I don't know your talent level Monkey, but I am guessing that when your bands do covers they are not necessarily better than the original, but I bet I would enjoy hearing your versions also.
You would - we were good.
We didn't strive for 'better' - because that wasn't our metric of success. A bar band gets paid (at least the backing musicians do) poorly, and rely on a healthy tip jar to augment the pay. Our goal was: - keep the sound as close to original as possible, so that those who want the original could say 'hey that was pretty close to the record'
- tweak it with just enough original bits so that the other people could say 'I like what they did with that' (and we wouldn't blow our brains out doing someone else's music), and
- get them up on the dance floor so that they were more likely to feed the tip jar
We lived for gigs where we could do our original stuff and not have to play covers.
quote:
It is possible you are one of the very talented artists that actually improve on the original and in that case even better.
Like I said - that wasn't our goal. We just tried to make things more interesting for the dance floor - like a reggae break in the middle of 'The Joker' that would allow the gals to get all slinky and lap-dancey. The guys loved it and would feed the tip jar. Or a completely revamped bassline to 'Love the One You're With' that would get fannies out of their seats - and shekels into the jar.
quote:
Are you familiar with Eva Cassidy? She is one of my favorite artists ever. I have never heard her do an original song. Her skill lies in her incredible voice and interpretation/styling.
I haven't heard of her - but it doesn't matter. I have no taste for 'interpreters'. I don't mind a singer/songwriter doing the occasional cover, if they think it fits into their repertoire - but I just do not like people whose career consists of interpreting other peoples emotions and thoughts. I rather listen to the originals, where no 'interpretation' is needed.
quote:
However, it is easy for us to say that they should pay for more rights. It is not our money.
Not my point. The contestants get a limited selection based on AI's finances; they are often forced to do songs they'd rather not because they have no choice; then the judges complain because they are singing the same old songs.
I don't have to look kindly on it - and I don't.
quote:
As for Crystal Bowersox I love her. As for comparing her to Janis I understand that can be annoying but people like to have a frame of reference. Who would have been a better comparison?
You're not talking about comparisons - you're talking about labeling. In discussing a singer, it is valid to note comparisons to other artists, but to continue to label someone as being like someone else is marketing shorthand and ultimately is stultifying to the singer's career. An example: I thouroughly like Leonard Cohen. Why would I want to hear someone else who's 'another Leonard Cohen'? I have Cohen already. I want to find someone else interesting who is not like someone I already enjoy.
Wow this is getting pretty long but I will make it a little longer LOL  . If you can't enjoy many remakes that is too bad. I feel lucky that I can really enjoy many remakes. Of my favorite songs I look for about as many remakes as I possibly can like Mack the Knife, Walking in Memphis, Somewhere Over the Rainbow, Danny Boy. I probably have about 10 or more versions of each of those songs on my playlist. As a matter of Fact I don't even like the original Mack the Knife which is the German Accordion version. Considering that the Bobby Darren remake is one of my favorite songs of all time I am very lucky that remakes were done of that song.
As for the IMO horrific remake of I will Always Love You that Whitney did I am in total agreement with you. Whitney butchered the song. It lost all semblance of meaning and emotion and sensitivity and became an exhibition of vocal gymnastics. I hate it when people refer to it as a Whitney song. I wish contestants would do closer to the Dolly version when performing it. On the other hand I do get what the people who like the Whitney version like about it and I don't begrudge them liking it.
If a person is an incredible singer you don't give them a chance unless they wrote the song they are singing. Not everybody can be a great songwriter. Eva Cassidy is spectacular. Sometimes a person who is not the writer of a song can create a better way to present the song than the writer. For example Tears for Fears did the original Mad World but it was interpreted and sang much better by Gary Jules. How about when the song writer isn't a singer at all. My favorite song writer is Jim Steinman. Every good song Meatloaf ever did was written by him. Celine Dion did a spectacular job interpreting and singing the Steinman song It's all coming back to me now. I also believe that Celine worked magic with My Heart will go On. If you are willing to give her a chance listen to Eva Cassidy do Fields of Gold and People Get Ready. You have every right to only like songs that are performed by the writer but I think that is so unnecessarily limiting. |
Edited by - Lancelot of Camelot on 08/07/2012 7:13:19 PM |
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Lancelot of Camelot
3303 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 6:58:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by monkeydharma
quote:
Originally posted by Lancelot of Camelot
I think so many of us in society like to take shots at famous people. I think a lot of times those shots taken are very unfair. These celebrities are treated as objects rather than people.
They ARE objects.
A person is a person. A 'celebrity' is an artificial construct made by marketing, sales, and the idolizing public. When a person like Wacko Jacko buys into the fame machine - they deserve everything they get.
You can be an artist - and make a good living at it - without buying into the Fame machine. This is why most of my entertainment dollar goes to local and regional musicians: not only to listen to them live, but buying their CDs pretty much puts the money into THEIR pockets instead of a record company. I avoid famous acts in arenas like the clap. The only exceptions I make to this is when I can catch a name act in a small venue (which I luck out having several here in NorCal). Al Stewart in a 200-seat club? I'm there. Emmylou Harris or Amee Mann in a 1000-seat venue? Sure. Coldplay at Arco Arena? No way in hell.
Celebrities are still human beings and deserve to be treated decent. I know it comes with the package, but that still doesn't make it right to treat them like ****. |
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monkeydharma
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2012 : 05:14:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancelot of Camelot
If you can't enjoy many remakes that is too bad.
I enjoy them if they can stand on their own. Most can't.
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Mack the Knife
A tune from 'The Threepenny Opera', designed to be sung by others...
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Walking in Memphis
A great tune (covered by my band, btw) - but only by Marc Cohn
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Somewhere Over the Rainbow, Danny Boy
Meh.
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I probably have about 10 or more versions of each of those songs on my playlist.
I find that completely baffling. There is waaay too much good music on this earth to limit myself to multiple versions of one tune.
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As a matter of Fact I don't even like the original Mack the Knife which is the German Accordion version. Considering that the Bobby Darren remake is one of my favorite songs of all time I am very lucky that remakes were done of that song.
Man, you couldn't be more wrong. The original (by Bertolt Brecht) makes the most sense, in terms of story line and time & place. Darren's knockoff, while catchy, is an example of trying to move it to a musical style that doesn't work. Darren was trying to make himself into 'another Sinatra' (and you know how I feel about that), and this was a prime example of that forsaken enterprise.
Another example would be Bertolt Brecht's 'Alabama Song (Whiskey Bar)'. The original (also from '20s Germany caberet musicals) was sung by prostitute characters. The Door's more popular version, while sufficiently pervy, doesn't really hold a candle to the original.
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If a person is an incredible singer you don't give them a chance unless they wrote the song they are singing.
Pretty much. I don't listen to music JUST for technical proficiency. I listen to the artistry of the song, of the sentiments invoked, and the singer in an integral part of that.I don't say that an artist can't sing another person's tune - but an 'artist' who ONLY sings other people's tunes is too two-dimensional to me.
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For example Tears for Fears did the original Mad World but it was interpreted and sang much better by Gary Jules.
Agreed.
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How about when the song writer isn't a singer at all. My favorite song writer is Jim Steinman. Every good song Meatloaf ever did was written by him. Celine Dion did a spectacular job interpreting and singing the Steinman song It's all coming back to me now.
Never cared much for Meatlof, Dion, or "It's All Coming Back".
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I also believe that Celine worked magic with My Heart will go On.
"near......far....in baaack of a car....". I hated that song.
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If you are willing to give her a chance listen to Eva Cassidy do Fields of Gold
Hate her already. 'Fields of Gold' to me is a song that should only be sung by Sting.
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and People Get Ready.
Don't care for that song, either.
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You have every right to only like songs that are performed by the writer but I think that is so unnecessarily limiting.
See, I find this attitude baffling. I think that listening to multiple versions of the same song unnecessarily limiting. There is so much good music in the world, I want to hear it all - not endless inferior repeats of the original, definitive version performed by the person who knows best what it is supposed to mean.
quote:
Originally posted by Lancelot of Camelot
Celebrities are still human beings and deserve to be treated decent. I know it comes with the package, but that still doesn't make it right to treat them like ****.
Yeah, it does. J' Lo isn't about to treat me like a person - turnabout is fair play.
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Edited by - monkeydharma on 08/08/2012 05:29:53 AM |
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